Legislature(1993 - 1994)

02/02/1994 08:00 AM House RES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
                                                                               
               HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE                              
                        February 2, 1994                                       
                            8:00 a.m.                                          
                                                                               
                                                                               
  MEMBERS PRESENT                                                              
                                                                               
  Representative Bill Hudson, Vice Chairman                                    
  Representative Con Bunde                                                     
  Representative Pat Carney                                                    
  Representative John Davies                                                   
  Representative Joe Green                                                     
  Representative Jeannette James                                               
  Representative Eldon Mulder                                                  
  Representative David Finkelstein                                             
                                                                               
  MEMBERS ABSENT                                                               
                                                                               
  Representative Bill Williams, Chairman                                       
                                                                               
  COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                           
                                                                               
  Briefing on Alaska Wetlands Policy by Alvin Ewing of United                  
  States Environmental Protection Agency, and Paul Rusanowski                  
  of Governor's Office, Division of Governmental Coordination                  
                                                                               
  WITNESS REGISTER                                                             
                                                                               
  ALVIN EWING                                                                  
  Assistant Regional Administrator                                             
  U.S. Environmental Protection Agency                                         
  Room 537, Federal Building                                                   
  222 W. 7th Avenue, #19                                                       
  Anchorage, AK    99513-7588                                                  
  Phone:  271-5083                                                             
  Position Statement:  Gave current status of federal activity                 
                       regarding the Alaska Wetlands                           
                       Initiative and answered questions                       
                       (via teleconference)                                    
                                                                               
  PAUL RUSANOWSKI, Director                                                    
  Division of Governmental Coordination                                        
  Office of Management and Budget                                              
  P.O. Box 110030                                                              
  Juneau, Alaska   99811-0030                                                  
  Phone:  465-3562                                                             
  Position Statement:  Gave an overview of the state                           
                       Administration's perspective and                        
                       activities regarding the Alaska                         
                       Wetlands Initiative                                     
                                                                               
                                                                               
  ACTION NARRATIVE                                                             
                                                                               
  TAPE 94-7, SIDE A                                                            
  Number 000                                                                   
                                                                               
  The House Resources Committee was called to order by Vice                    
  Chairman Bill Hudson at 8:12 a.m.  Members present at the                    
  call to order were Representatives Hudson, Carney, Davies,                   
  Finkelstein, and Green.  Members absent were Representatives                 
  Bunde, James, Mulder, and Williams.                                          
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIRMAN BILL HUDSON announced the meeting is an                        
  educational briefing on the wetlands issue and the purpose                   
  of the meeting is to learn about ongoing activities                          
  regarding the wetlands and where the issues are heading.  He                 
  stated no public testimony will be taken.                                    
                                                                               
  Number 030                                                                   
                                                                               
  ALVIN EWING, ASSISTANT REGIONAL ADMINISTRATOR, UNITED STATES                 
  ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY (EPA) thanked the committee                  
  for the opportunity to brief members on the process                          
  currently underway to consider environmentally appropriate                   
  means to assure regulatory flexibility and the feasibility                   
  of alternative permitting procedures for the Clean Water Act                 
  Section 404 wetlands regulatory program in Alaska.                           
                                                                               
  MR. EWING advised the Clinton Administration's August 24,                    
  1993 Wetlands Plan stated the intent to withdraw the                         
  proposed "Alaska 1% rule".  He said the plan further directs                 
  EPA and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (Corps) to meet                     
  with interest groups in Alaska to identify and address                       
  concerns with the Clean Water Act Section 404 program in                     
  Alaska.  Specifically, the plan states that the agencies                     
  will initiate meetings with Federal resource agencies, state                 
  and local government agencies, representatives of Native                     
  villages, industry groups including oil and fishing                          
  interests, and environmental groups, to consider other                       
  environmentally appropriate means to assure regulatory                       
  flexibility and the feasibility of alternative permitting                    
  procedures in Alaska.                                                        
                                                                               
  MR. EWING continued that on October 12, 1993, the agencies                   
  in Alaska (EPA and the Corps) invited a diverse and                          
  comprehensive group of stakeholders to participate in a                      
  series of independently facilitated meetings in Juneau,                      
  Bethel, Fairbanks, and Anchorage.  He advised those meetings                 
  took place in late October and early November.  He said the                  
  two day meetings provided the opportunity for stakeholders                   
  to present oral testimony, as well as discuss concerns in a                  
  roundtable format.                                                           
                                                                               
  MR. EWING stressed the public was invited to attend the                      
  meetings, to submit written comments, and to participate in                  
  a statewide teleconference linking twenty locations                          
  throughout Alaska.  Approximately 75 Alaskans took advantage                 
  of the public comment opportunities.  He said approximately                  
  1,500 letters were mailed to Alaskans who, over the last                     
  five years, had applied for Section 404 permits, to survey                   
  their opinion regarding experience with the regulatory                       
  program.                                                                     
                                                                               
  Number 065                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. EWING explained at the conclusion of the first round of                  
  meetings, EPA and the Corps, with assistance from the U.S.                   
  Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) and the National Marine                      
  Fisheries Service (NMFS), and with oversight by the White                    
  House Interagency Wetlands Working Group, developed a set of                 
  eleven issue papers.  He said the Alaska Wetlands Initiative                 
  Issue Papers have been available for pubic comment since                     
  December 17, 1993.  He stated that in response to the House                  
  and Senate Resources Committee's request, the closing date                   
  for comments on the issue papers was extended from January                   
  21, 1994 to February 4, 1994.                                                
                                                                               
  MR. EWING remarked that during the month of January, a                       
  second round of stakeholder meetings were held in Juneau,                    
  Bethel, Fairbanks, and Anchorage, specifically to garner                     
  feedback on the issue papers.  He said the meetings were                     
  managed by an independent facilitator and resulted in a                      
  summary report, prepared by the facilitator, which will be                   
  used during the refinement of the issue papers and                           
  preparation of an action plan.  He added that all meetings                   
  were recorded, and written transcripts are available.                        
                                                                               
  Number 080                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. EWING stated upon the conclusion of the public comment                   
  period, EPA will summarize and analyze public comments.  The                 
  public comments, in conjunction with results of the                          
  roundtable meetings, and public meetings will serve as                       
  guidance as the issue papers are revised and an action plan                  
  for implementation of recommendations is developed.  He said                 
  EPA and the Corps will have the lead in the refinement                       
  process, assisted by FWS and NMFS with oversight from the                    
  White House Interagency Wetlands Working Group.                              
                                                                               
  MR. EWING expected the process to be concluded in March                      
  1994.  He informed the committee that implementation of the                  
  action plan is expected to begin immediately thereafter, and                 
  depending on the nature of the actions, could take up to                     
  several years to complete.                                                   
                                                                               
  Number 095                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. EWING referring to copies of the December 17, 1993,                      
  public review draft of the issue papers, said topics covered                 
  by the issue papers include:  No Overall Net Loss of                         
  Wetlands Goal; Alaska Legal Issues; Alaska Physical                          
  Environment; State, Local, and Native Roles; Individual                      
  Permit Process; Alternative Permit Processing Procedures;                    
  Mitigation Sequence; Compensatory Mitigation; Advanced                       
  Planning and Watershed Management; Wetlands Inventory,                       
  Classification, and Categorization; and Outreach and                         
  Education.                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. EWING stated each issue paper contains background                        
  information, a summary of stakeholder and public comments                    
  and analysis, and proposed recommendations.  He noted that                   
  proposed recommendations are in two categories:  those                       
  applicable actions contained in the Clinton Administration's                 
  August 24, 1993, Wetlands Plan and Alaska specific actions.                  
  He said in the interest of time, he would not recapitulate                   
  what is contained in the issue papers.                                       
                                                                               
  Number 108                                                                   
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked whether or not the                                
  recommendations fit within the present policies of wetland                   
  regulations.                                                                 
                                                                               
  MR. EWING replied one of the concerns heard around the state                 
  is that the Clinton Administration's Wetlands Plan will                      
  tighten up the regulation of wetlands in Alaska.  He said                    
  EPA intends to continue to be reasonable, as EPA understands                 
  the realities of Alaska--that a big percentage of the state                  
  is wetlands, and it is not the intent to make it impossible                  
  for important development to go forward.                                     
                                                                               
  MR. EWING stated in regard to the recommendations, EPA is                    
  clarifying the path the agency intends to follow in the                      
  future in regard to regulation.  He noted that the path will                 
  be similar to what it has been in the past, with the                         
  exception of EPA trying to cut red tape where possible.  He                  
  said EPA's charge is to be environmentally responsible while                 
  removing red tape.                                                           
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIRMAN HUDSON recalled that the Corps had been                        
  invited but chose not to attend the meeting.  He inquired if                 
  the Corps and EPA are working together on the statewide                      
  hearing process to develop an action plan that everyone will                 
  understand.                                                                  
                                                                               
  MR. EWING replied the action plan will be very closely                       
  coordinated between EPA, the Corps, FWS, and NMFS.                           
                                                                               
  Number 150                                                                   
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIRMAN HUDSON questioned if there will be additional                  
  funding and staffing available in order to implement the                     
  action plan.                                                                 
                                                                               
  MR. EWING responded committee members must be aware of the                   
  federal budget situation and felt EPA cannot count on                        
  significant increases in either budget or staffing.  He said                 
  even within those constraints, many things can be done which                 
  are set forward in the recommendations contained in the                      
  draft issue papers.                                                          
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIRMAN HUDSON noted the state and Native corporate                    
  landowners are very interested and concerned about the                       
  wetlands issue and how it relates to the development of                      
  infrastructure in rural Alaska.  He assumed there has been                   
  consideration for input and for user-friendly regulations.                   
                                                                               
  MR. EWING replied EPA has received that message loud and                     
  clear.  He said one of the biggest challenges at hand is                     
  communicating with rural Alaska and helping people                           
  understand what they can do and what the limitations are.                    
  He explained under the existing program there are many                       
  general permits applicable to villages in rural Alaska, but                  
  in most cases the rural villages are not aware the permits                   
  exist.  He said where villages are aware, they feel positive                 
  about the way the program is working.                                        
                                                                               
  Number 195                                                                   
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked Mr. Ewing to give the committee                   
  more information on the President's "No Net Loss" policy on                  
  the use of Alaska's wetlands.                                                
                                                                               
  MR. EWING stated that President Clinton is proposing to                      
  formalize a policy which has been in place for several years                 
  and intends to put the policy in the form of an Executive                    
  Order.  He said there has already been four years of                         
  experience with the "No Net Loss" policy and what it means                   
  to Alaska.  He noted that EPA has tried to administer the                    
  policy in a practical way, recognizing in many instances no                  
  net loss is not achievable.  He stressed as the Alaska plan                  
  is finalized, what is practical and what is not practical                    
  needs to be clear.                                                           
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked when the plan would be final and                  
  available for public review.                                                 
                                                                               
  MR. EWING replied the action plan will be available                          
  mid-March 1994.                                                              
                                                                               
  (VICE CHAIRMAN HUDSON noted for the record that                              
  REPRESENTATIVES BUNDE AND MULDER joined the committee at                     
  8:15 a.m. and 8:30 a.m.)                                                     
                                                                               
  Number 222                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE JOE GREEN remarked the Corps has a broad                      
  definition of wetlands which has a much more profound effect                 
  on Alaska than it would on comparable areas of other states.                 
  He said the Corps considers permafrost areas as wetlands and                 
  wondered if EPA in Alaska is being proactive in trying to                    
  get an understanding of the effect across to Washington.                     
                                                                               
  MR. EWING answered he would not expect, as a result of                       
  current efforts, that the definition of wetlands will change                 
  but he expects it will put forward a reasonable expectation                  
  of what kind of regulation is appropriate, depending on the                  
  functions and values associated with wetlands.  He felt that                 
  EPA has been reasonable and flexible regarding the                           
  regulation and the way it has been applied on the North                      
  Slope.                                                                       
                                                                               
  Number 240                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE GREEN expressed concern about the reasonable                  
  amount of growth in the rural areas as well as the                           
  metropolitan areas, and was concerned that when Mr. Ewing                    
  went through the list of organizations which are part of the                 
  committee reviewing the action plan, he did not hear any                     
  proactive groups who might have input on long range                          
  development plans affecting the state.                                       
                                                                               
  Number 257                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. EWING responded the stakeholders included twelve                         
  different interest groups involving the Resource Development                 
  Council, Alaska Oil and Gas Association, Native interests,                   
  tourism, energy, municipalities, etc.                                        
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE JOHN DAVIES asked what percentage of permits                  
  applied for are granted under the current program.                           
                                                                               
  MR. EWING replied approximately 98 percent.                                  
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES questioned how many require action on                  
  the part of the applicant such as mitigation, or a plat                      
  denied.                                                                      
                                                                               
  MR. EWING said there is a three step process involved which                  
  is called mitigation sequencing (indiscernible).  He                         
  stressed in every case the applicant is expected to look for                 
  alternatives if it is not possible to avoid, and about one-                  
  half of one percent of permits result in compensatory                        
  mitigation.                                                                  
                                                                               
  Number 285                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES recalled that a survey of Section 404                  
  permit applicants had been completed and asked if one of the                 
  reasons for the survey was to assess the applicants'                         
  satisfaction or dissatisfaction with the process.  He also                   
  inquired if the survey results were available.                               
                                                                               
  MR. EWING replied the survey and results were available.  He                 
  said the Corps conducted the survey and could provide the                    
  results and an analysis.                                                     
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES requested the survey and accompanying                  
  results and analysis.                                                        
                                                                               
  Number 310                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE DAVID FINKELSTEIN noted one of the concerns                   
  is where categorically exemptions are going to occur and                     
  asked if the standard in federal law is where either the                     
  avoidance or compensation for damage is not practical.                       
                                                                               
  MR. EWING stated it is in the 404.B.l guidelines.                            
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN wondered if 98 percent of permits                 
  are issued and there are so many other alternatives                          
  available, are there areas in the state where EPA has found                  
  avoidance or compensation are not practical.                                 
                                                                               
  MR. EWING responded there are areas where avoidance is not                   
  practical.  He said many regions in the state are 100                        
  percent wetlands and if a person is going to develop within                  
  one of those areas in the state, avoidance is not possible                   
  and minimization is considered.  He stated compensatory                      
  mitigation involves going back and creating or enhancing                     
  wetland.  In an area that is 100 percent wetland, that is                    
  generally not practical either, unless there are previous                    
  disturbances that are no longer required for some purpose                    
  and could be removed.  He stated for example, if on the                      
  North Slope there is an old pad or old road that could be                    
  rehabilitated, a possible compensatory type action could be                  
  required.                                                                    
                                                                               
  Number 350                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN wondered if the situation on the                  
  North Slope involves general permits.                                        
                                                                               
  MR. EWING said he did not believe there were any general                     
  permits on the North Slope for oil and gas type activities,                  
  but there are general permits operable on the North Slope                    
  for housing.  He noted that does not mean there could not be                 
  general permits for oil and gas activities in the future.                    
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN said much of the basis for the                    
  furor over wetlands is lack of flexibility and he felt                       
  between mitigation measures available and opportunities for                  
  exemption, etc., the Corps and EPA has a lot of flexibility.                 
   He asked how the 98 percent approval rate compares                          
  nationally.                                                                  
                                                                               
  MR. EWING responded the 98 percent permit approval rate is                   
  much higher than the national average.                                       
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN remarked there was not time                       
  today, but he would like to hear about the problem cases at                  
  some point.  He said he has never been able to understand                    
  why it is perceived there is such a problem with permits.                    
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIRMAN HUDSON said the state has been working on                      
  developing plans to make the state's regulations more useful                 
  to the general public, such as one stop permitting processes                 
  and finding ways to instruct people who have regulatory                      
  problems.  He asked if EPA understands the unique combined                   
  Alaska concerns and whether or not there will be plans to                    
  provide for expedited permitting, reducing costs and the                     
  long time frame required.                                                    
                                                                               
  MR. EWING responded both sides of the issue have been heard                  
  and stressed what is being balanced is the opportunity for                   
  the public to get involved against the person who has an                     
  action he wants to go forward as expeditiously as possible.                  
  He believed within existing regulations, there are general                   
  permits which greatly expedite the process and accelerated                   
  permitting procedures, which are now being finalized and                     
  cover sewage and sanitation type facilities for rural                        
  Alaska.  He said EPA is trying to find the best mix, from a                  
  public interest point of view.                                               
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIRMAN HUDSON mentioned he listened carefully as to                   
  who attended the round tables and noted the fishing industry                 
  was not mentioned.                                                           
                                                                               
  MR. EWING said he did not mention the fishing community but                  
  in fact, there were representatives from both the commercial                 
  and sport fishing industry.                                                  
                                                                               
  Number 466                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES asked Mr. Ewing to comment on the                      
  connection between Section 404 wetlands management and the                   
  Alaska Coastal Zone Management Plan.                                         
                                                                               
  MR. EWING responded there are overlaps in relation to the                    
  resources managed by the two programs.  He said the                          
  Department of Commerce has lead responsibility for the                       
  Alaska Coastal Zone Management Plan and has commenting                       
  responsibilities for Section 404 permits.  He added that the                 
  statutory basis for the two programs are different.                          
                                                                               
  (VICE CHAIRMAN HUDSON noted for the record that                              
  REPRESENTATIVE JAMES joined the committee at 8:45 a.m.)                      
                                                                               
  Number 510                                                                   
                                                                               
  PAUL RUSANOWSKI, DIRECTOR, DIVISION OF GOVERNMENTAL                          
  COORDINATION, announced he would review the role the state                   
  has played in the process thus far and discuss a few of the                  
  issues involved.  He emphasized the driving force for the                    
  entire process has been that Alaska is climatological,                       
  physiographically, and demographically different than the                    
  other 49 states.  That fact was recognized by President Bush                 
  in his approach of establishing the one percent exemption                    
  and has been recognized by President Clinton in developing                   
  his wetlands strategy on August 24, when he initiated the                    
  Alaska Wetlands Initiative, to be followed by the action                     
  plan.                                                                        
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI told members there are 175 million acres of                   
  wetlands with minimal losses in the state.  He said the                      
  federal government owns 115 million acres or 65 percent; the                 
  state owns 40 million acres; Native organizations own 20                     
  million acres.  Therefore, of the 175 million acres of                       
  wetlands, there are less than 200,000 acres in private, non-                 
  Native ownership in the state.  He said wetlands ownership                   
  in Alaska is unique since in most other states, the majority                 
  of wetlands are currently in private ownership.                              
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI stated that within the federal ownership of                   
  115 million acres, much of it has been protected in various                  
  ways.  Over 18 million acres have been set aside in                          
  wilderness areas; another 40 million acres are in national                   
  parks and refuges; and only 56 million acres are in federal                  
  multiple use management.  He said the state has also set                     
  aside some of its wetlands in special preservation or                        
  management categories.  Therefore, the total number of acres                 
  in a restricted status is over 63 million acres or 36                        
  percent of all wetlands in Alaska.                                           
                                                                               
  Number 577                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI advised that the state is dominated by Arctic                 
  and subarctic conditions.  He said another element that                      
  everyone needs to be cognizant of is the characteristics of                  
  the demographics in the state.  Most communities are small                   
  and rural; of the approximately 350 communities in the                       
  state, most have populations of less than 2,500 and the                      
  majority have less than 1,000; 75 percent of the state's                     
  population is in 38 communities; 50 percent of the state's                   
  population is in one community.  He emphasized the state has                 
  a very unusual distribution of population.  In reviewing the                 
  wetlands issues, one must remember that the majority of the                  
  state is rural and involves small communities who lack basic                 
  infrastructure services, which are routine and expected                      
  elsewhere in the country.  He noted that 60 percent of rural                 
  communities do not have in home sewer and water services.                    
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI continued that most of the rural communities                  
  are not served by a road system and the few that are, are                    
  not connected in a network allowing roads to be used for                     
  transportation outside the local area.  Most of the                          
  communities are served primarily by water and air, which                     
  puts limitations on the types of development and economics                   
  which can occur.  He said this type of isolation makes any                   
  type of activity expensive and requisite to a long lead time                 
  in planning within state and federal governments to                          
  implement any type of capital improvement project.                           
                                                                               
  Number 621                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI explained the process initiated by President                  
  Clinton involving the round table meetings began                             
  approximately six months ago.  The state feels the process                   
  is moving rapidly.  He said the state has repeatedly been                    
  outspoken on the need to involve the public and various                      
  interest groups throughout the process.  He stressed the                     
  state has participated in the process, but solely as a                       
  stakeholder not as a partner with the Corps and EPA in                       
  developing the process.                                                      
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI said the state feels there has been very                      
  limited opportunity for public participation, primarily due                  
  to the time frame the state has been constrained to.  He                     
  recognized that both the Corps and EPA have responded to the                 
  state's concerns and as the process has moved forward, there                 
  has been increasing opportunities for public participation                   
  and a broadening of those participating as stakeholders.                     
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI told members that the issues developed were                   
  released December 17, 1993, and noted there were eleven                      
  issue papers and a series of recommendations.  There are                     
  recommendations within each of the issue papers at both a                    
  general level and an Alaska specific level, as well as a                     
  separate document suggesting recommendations specifically                    
  for Alaska.                                                                  
                                                                               
  TAPE 94-7, SIDE B                                                            
  Number 000                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI said the state is encouraged that the federal                 
  government recognizes there must be a flexible                               
  implementation of the "No Net Loss" goal, and noted that the                 
  current policy is being articulated as a goal rather than a                  
  rigid, inflexible policy.  He stated comments to date have                   
  emphasized that in Alaska, avoidance and minimization are                    
  appropriate mechanisms to address "No Net Loss" policy or                    
  goals.                                                                       
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI said the state is concerned that only federal                 
  agencies are now specified as developing guidance to                         
  implement the "No Net Loss" goal.  Reflecting back on the                    
  ownership status mentioned earlier, 99 plus percent of the                   
  state ownership exists within three entities: the federal                    
  government, the state, and Native corporations.  He stressed                 
  the state feels the guidance and policy should incorporate                   
  those interest groups if it is going to be successful.                       
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI remarked the state likes the recognition that                 
  experience in Alaska shows that minimization is a primary                    
  tool in mitigation sequencing.  Compensation should be                       
  limited to those truly remarkable wetlands where impacts                     
  cannot be avoided through minimization and where the action                  
  does not adequately address the concerns.  He said where                     
  there truly is a loss to the public, the state feels that                    
  compensatory mitigation may be required but is the rare                      
  exception, not routine.                                                      
                                                                               
  Number 021                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI said the state appreciates the Corps and EPA                  
  stating they will recommend that the President's Executive                   
  Order on Wetlands articulate flexibility in implementing the                 
  Administration's goal of "No Net Loss."  He stated with some                 
  reservations, the state feels minimization as the primary                    
  tool in mitigation sequencing is appropriate.  He recalled                   
  one of the questions addressing the Coastal Zone Management                  
  program and the Section 404 program overlaps.  Mr.                           
  Rusanowski pointed out that within the Coastal Zone                          
  Management program, all districts have incorporated                          
  mitigation sequencing as defined in Section 404 of the Clean                 
  Water Act within their district programs.  He said it is a                   
  duplication of effort, but a different perspective.                          
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI remarked that the state expects to be                         
  involved in developing and implementing policies specifying                  
  when and where compensatory mitigation will be required.  He                 
  said the state supports the emphasis on alternative                          
  permitting procedures, general permits and the proposed                      
  circle permits.  These measures recognize the unique                         
  circumstances that exist in the state and where appropriate,                 
  it is felt that their use should be maximized.  He said in                   
  considering the programs, there is a significant paperwork                   
  burden associated with both obtaining them and administering                 
  such programs, and goes beyond the capabilities of the                       
  communities in which they are intended to provide relief.                    
  He stressed the state feels it is critical that the federal                  
  action plan address some sort of assistance to those                         
  communities where it is appropriate the relief will work and                 
  provide some technical and financial assistance enabling                     
  communities to achieve their goals.                                          
                                                                               
  Number 058                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI stated that wetlands management plans may be                  
  appropriate in some areas, but may not be practical or                       
  within reach of all communities.  There are several                          
  communities who have initiated wetlands planning efforts                     
  which tend to be expensive and lengthy processes.  He said                   
  the state feels planning efforts should focus on protecting                  
  wetlands of critical value and their functions, rather than                  
  all wetlands regardless of function and value.                               
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI said the state believes the practicality and                  
  expense of complex and sophisticated planning efforts may                    
  not be commensurate with the level of wetlands development                   
  or conservation activities that will occur in the near                       
  future.  He felt, again while it may look good on paper,                     
  some communities have only one or two projects that will                     
  occur in the next five to ten years.  He noted the planning                  
  efforts may be overkill for the necessary development                        
  activities that will occur.                                                  
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI told members that the state thinks the                        
  recognition of the need for a regionalized wetlands                          
  delineation manual is critical.  He felt the wetlands                        
  delineation manual must be comprehensive and must be linked                  
  directly to the wetlands permitting process, and must be                     
  applicable on a program basis, thus avoiding case by case                    
  delineation of wetlands.                                                     
                                                                               
  Number 085                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI gave an example of a costly federal program                   
  not working for the wetland permitting program; that being                   
  the National Wetlands Inventory being conducted by FWS.  It                  
  is a method of classifying wetlands and is an expensive                      
  program.  He said the program has errors in inventory, is                    
  not state of the art, uses less than the best available                      
  information and is not used for any jurisdictional or                        
  delineation determinations.  He emphasized that the state                    
  feels unless the problems are corrected, the National                        
  Wetlands Inventory cannot be used to support a wetlands                      
  regulatory program.                                                          
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI commented that one of the five principles                     
  that President Clinton had discussed in his program on                       
  August 24 was that of partnerships.  He noted that it was                    
  stated, "The federal government should expand partnerships                   
  with State, Tribal, and local governments, the private                       
  sector and individual citizens..."  He said the state feels                  
  to date there has been a good start in recognizing and                       
  discussing important wetland issues in the state, but an                     
  essential component which must be fully realized in the                      
  action plan is the development of an effective partnership                   
  between federal and Alaskan permitting authorities as well                   
  as the Native community.  Mr. Rusanowski noted the state                     
  feels the partnership is a critical element to any type of                   
  future success.                                                              
                                                                               
  Number 112                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI stressed the success of the wetlands                          
  initiative and current recommendations are critically                        
  dependent on full participation by both state and Native                     
  interests.  The state embraces the partnership concept, but                  
  believes thus far the state has been limited to a                            
  participant stakeholder role rather than a full partner.  He                 
  said the state has continually asked they be allowed to                      
  participate as a full partner, particularly in developing                    
  the action plan and sharing responsibilities for its                         
  success.                                                                     
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI commented that partnerships do work and cited                 
  a successful partner agreement now in place between the                      
  Corps and Division of Governmental Coordination.  He said                    
  more use of this type of flexibility would go a long way to                  
  solving problems of Alaskans.                                                
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI stated the commitment to propose additional                   
  general permits statewide and circle general permits to                      
  communities will improve the regulatory process.  However,                   
  it is critically dependent on the state being a partner in                   
  developing any regulatory scheme for Alaskan communities.                    
  Programs such as advanced identification of wetlands, circle                 
  general permits, and watershed planning must incorporate                     
  local and regional values, and accommodate community needs                   
  to be successful.  He felt there must be a balancing of                      
  community needs, resource values, and environmental                          
  management that is supported by consideration of multiple                    
  issues, rather than a single issue, no matter how compelling                 
  the issue might be.                                                          
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI stressed the balancing and consideration of                   
  all relevant issues and points of view in this process will                  
  foster cooperation and public support for requisite                          
  regulatory programs and overall success of the Alaska                        
  Wetlands Initiative.                                                         
                                                                               
  Number 154                                                                   
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked if the state has prepared a                       
  comprehensive formal position in response to the Wetland                     
  Initiative.                                                                  
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI responded a formal position is still in the                   
  process.  The state has worked with identification of the                    
  issues and responding to the recommendations made by the                     
  Corps and EPA.                                                               
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked if the one percent exemption is                   
  no longer a strategy being considered.                                       
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI said that was correct but it needs to be                      
  recognized that the one percent exemption strategy was                       
  developed as a platform to provide relief to communities and                 
  to the state in developing wetlands.  He stressed the                        
  program currently being considered is trying to accomplish                   
  the same thing within the structures of the existing                         
  regulatory framework.  He said the approaches being                          
  presented are truly realizing the flexibility which has                      
  existed but has not been implemented to date.                                
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIRMAN HUDSON inquired if the state is making                         
  specific recommendations on how to correct the problems with                 
  the National Wetlands Inventory.                                             
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI responded that the National Wetlands                          
  Inventory is extremely controversial as a tool to be used.                   
  He said currently, the state is working on developing a                      
  classification system for the state which may or may not                     
  incorporate the inventory mechanism.  The state is trying to                 
  determine what best fits Alaska's needs and communities in                   
  the regulatory structure and noted the biggest problem with                  
  the National Wetlands Inventory system is that it does not                   
  relate to the jurisdictional wetlands delineations that are                  
  done with the manual and it does not relate to issuing                       
  permits.  He added it is a very expensive program, $25                       
  million, and felt that money would be better spent on                        
  something that will help the permit process, the applicants                  
  and facilitate wetlands management in the state rather than                  
  provide a dual classification system which is of no use.                     
                                                                               
  Number 208                                                                   
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked what the effect of state                          
  assumption of wetlands will be and how will it affect                        
  management of Native lands.                                                  
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI replied state assumption of wetlands has been                 
  an issue for six to eight years and has been reviewed                        
  formally three times and informally many times.  He said the                 
  issue revolves around the decision process.  If the program                  
  is assumed and managed within the state, the decisions will                  
  be more locally oriented than perhaps present decisions.                     
  The program might be more sensitive to community needs and                   
  to the different values which may be attached to wetlands                    
  but still maintain overall national goals.  He stressed the                  
  program is currently within the federal government so it is                  
  federally administered.  In looking at assumption, the state                 
  has not found an appropriate handle to move forward, that                    
  would provide appropriate state participation without                        
  costing a lot of money to the state and providing no better                  
  opportunity, other than the decision process, than the                       
  current program.                                                             
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI remarked the state's efforts currently are                    
  focusing on the Clean Water Act and whether or not                           
  assumption can be made friendlier, so it does not have the                   
  financial burden and has stronger linkages to make the state                 
  and federal partnership work more efficiently.  He felt if                   
  that is accomplished within the Clean Water Act, then it                     
  makes sense to adopt the program within the state and move                   
  forward, but in the present arrangement, however, it is a                    
  costly program that will not result in better management of                  
  wetlands due to the structure and internal structure of                      
  government.                                                                  
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES asked Mr. Rusanowski to expand on his                  
  comments regarding the impacts and problems relating to                      
  small communities in rural Alaska.                                           
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI said the problems are difficult to articulate                 
  because they do not relate directly to the issuance of                       
  permits.  In fact, when permits in rural Alaska are applied                  
  for, they are granted.  He stressed the problem incurred is                  
  a time and cost issue; interacting with agencies, preparing                  
  the materials, etc.  It takes an effort and often does not                   
  occur in rural Alaska.  Because of their remoteness, they                    
  often do not even know a permit is required.                                 
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI stated the processing time for a permit                       
  through the Corps is usually between 90-120 days.  In regard                 
  to planning in rural Alaska, where there is a short time                     
  frame to complete a project quickly, a 90-120 day process                    
  can cost a construction season.  These type of situations                    
  have ripple effects in rural Alaska.  He said sewer and                      
  water projects, for example, are delayed three to six months                 
  due to the duplicate permitting process required.  He added                  
  that the purpose of the alternative permitting procedure is                  
  to eliminate the duplicating of permitting.                                  
                                                                               
  Number 295                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. EWING clarified the 90-120 days processing time                          
  mentioned is for individual permits and most activities                      
  occurring in the villages of Alaska fall under the category                  
  of general permits.  He said for projects not covered by                     
  general permits, there is the accelerated permitting                         
  procedure which will be operational soon.                                    
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES asked what the time frame is for                       
  general permits.                                                             
                                                                               
  MR. EWING responded for general permits there is no                          
  application.                                                                 
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES inquired what the process is for                       
  getting a general permit in place.                                           
                                                                               
  MR. EWING replied that is where public involvement comes                     
  into play.  There is a full public review procedure for                      
  looking at a proposed general permit.  It may take three to                  
  six months to draft and issue a general permit but once it                   
  is in place, it is good for a fixed period of time and no                    
  application is required.                                                     
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI mentioned a sewer and water project which                     
  began under a general permit and went almost two years                       
  before the general permit concept was dropped and an                         
  alternative permitting procedure proposed.  The alternative                  
  permitting procedure has moved rapidly, but it will still be                 
  eight to ten months before it is in place.                                   
                                                                               
  Number 344                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES asked for an explanation on the                        
  duplicate process mentioned.                                                 
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI said the duplicate process referred to,                       
  involves rural sanitation projects where because of federal                  
  funding involved, they go through a National Environmental                   
  Policy Act (NEPA) process and added there is already full                    
  participation of all federal and state agencies in the                       
  review of the project through the Environmental Impact                       
  Statement (EIS) process.  He stated this is followed by a                    
  Coastal Zone Management review which does exactly the same                   
  thing.  He noted the Coastal Zone Management review does not                 
  start until the other one is finished costing a lot of time                  
  and money without serving a purpose.                                         
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE JEANNETTE JAMES asked if she understood                       
  correctly that when going through the community process to                   
  get a general permit, there are definite things in that                      
  permit which can or cannot be done, and if there is a desire                 
  to do something in the future not falling within the general                 
  permit, it will then require an individual permit or a                       
  variance on the general permit.                                              
                                                                               
  MR. EWING responded that was correct.                                        
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked if there are any federal funds                    
  available to help communities to get involved in the                         
  regulation development process.                                              
                                                                               
  MR. EWING responded there are limited funds available for                    
  assisting communities.  There is a current grant with the                    
  state of Alaska and the same source of those funds could be                  
  made available to local communities.  He guessed the funds                   
  totaled approximately $250,000.                                              
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked if the funds require a state                      
  match.                                                                       
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI replied the funds do not, but the funds which                 
  go through the Coastal Zone Management program all require a                 
  50 percent state match.                                                      
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIRMAN HUDSON questioned how much money was involved                  
  in the Coastal Zone Management program.                                      
                                                                               
  MR. RUSANOWSKI stated the Coastal Zone Management program                    
  has approximately $2 1/2 million which requires $2 million                   
  of state match.                                                              
                                                                               
  MR. EWING clarified the state grant does have a state match                  
  of 25 percent and currently it is an in-kind match.                          
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked what is driving the expedited                     
  time frame in establishing the action plan.                                  
                                                                               
  MR. EWING responded the issue has been dealt with for many                   
  years and there is a lot of impatience to get it resolved as                 
  expeditiously as possible.  He added the Clean Water Act is                  
  up for reauthorization and some of the same issues can be                    
  resolved with the Clean Water Act, and it would be                           
  preferable to deal with them as a part of the wetlands                       
  initiative if possible.                                                      
                                                                               
  Number 453                                                                   
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIRMAN HUDSON thanked everyone for participating.                     
                                                                               
                                                                               
  ANNOUNCEMENTS                                                                
                                                                               
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIRMAN HUDSON announced the committee will meet                       
  Friday, February 4 at 8:15 a.m. to hear Senate Bill 132.                     
                                                                               
                                                                               
  ADJOURNMENT                                                                  
                                                                               
  There being no further business to come before the House                     
  Resources Committee, Vice Chairman Hudson adjourned the                      
  meeting at 9:25 a.m.                                                         
                                                                               

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